The point of no returns policies

Welcome to Make Good Things Happen, a podcast for makers in business presented to

you by Angela D’Alton and Renee Baker.

Well, we can start with this week, aye? Yes, we can. Because I actually have got

30 minutes left of the six -part series of Apple Cider Vinegar left to watch And

instead of watching it right now, which is kind of what I want to be doing, I’m

recording this podcast with you. I’m also happy to be doing it. That will always be

there, but it does mean that I’m on the edge of my seat in the cliffhanger that

is the story of Belle Gibson, one of the original wellness influencers who claimed

that she cured her brain cancer using food -based medicine and leverage that to

create an entire business from it that made her nearly half a million dollars from

an iPhone app and an Android app and a cookbook that was published by a large

publishing house. And yeah, turns out it was all a massive, massive scam and she

never had brain cancer at all and Lied about it and and unfortunately a lot of

people were scammed by this So yeah, it’s based off a true story and I’m watching

a six -part series on Netflix That’s just been released. Yeah keen to find out how

it ends. No a little bit So you don’t you don’t remember the story being in the

news. I do I do I do remember story Yeah, so I do know but you see it’s it’s a

dramatization So it’s like, it’s like watching the Titanic. You kind of know how

it’s going to end. But imagine stopping, imagine pausing on the bit where they’re

stuck on the raft. You know, you need to see it out. – Oh, totally. You still got

to see it out. One thing that I’m curious about, ’cause I confess I haven’t started

watching it yet. I’ve been wrapped up in noir, but the actress that plays Belle

Gibson in the actual miniseries on Netflix is an American girl who I have seen in

other shows and always been very impressed with in terms of her acting ability. I

think the shock is that she’s incredibly good at doing an Australian accent. What

did you think? – Well, so much so that I didn’t know that.

So… – There you go. – You know what I’m like. I don’t just look at the ads, I

have to know all of the other bits and pieces that are going on behind the scenes.

But this, especially when it comes to accents, I’m always fascinated with people who

do accents. I think she’s very good. I think it’s interesting seeing an American

portraying an Australian. It seems to be more common. Was that because of the,

the likeness as opposed to? I don’t know. I mean, I guess when you’re casting those

sorts of roles, you have to find someone that looks like the person, sort of. – I

don’t know, I doubt that she was chosen for her appearance. I mean, there was

possibly some overall physical similarities that pushed it over the edge, but I think

Netflix is, if they’re investing in a series,

they want to invest in someone who’s going to provide an appropriate return on

investment. And I think they know that she’s on the up and up this young actress.

And like I said, she’s been in a couple of other big shows. She was in Dope Sick

mini series. She played an incredible role in that show. Back to Belle Gibson.

She’s doing the accent very well. It’s funny because I certainly not as across

acting as you are, but I thought of, I didn’t love her actual acting in the role,

but I don’t know if that’s because Belle, the character /the real person that she’s

portraying is irritating. And so maybe there’s an element of that because there’s

that mimicry as opposed to just creating a character, which you would be doing if

you were just straight up acting. She’s trying to be someone else that already

exists. Yeah, I mean, I’ve certainly just become really interested in it because I’ve

always had a fascination with, well, scams, but also like MLM -based business.

– It’s got everything for you. It’s got the, yeah, the cult, the con artist, the

MLM rip -off stuff. It’s got everything that you love.

I don’t think you’re alone in terms of how you feel about the show. I’ve heard not

only is it consistently in the top few shows in Netflix,

but also worldwide, that is apparently the case. And in addition to that, we’ve seen

the resurgence of the story in the news cycle from many major mastheads.

I’ve been reporting on, you know, where is she now or where are they now? Did she

pay the fine? Not that I want to spoil it for you. I’ve read an article and I’ll

share it in the show notes if I can find it again, which I’m sure I will. But it

was talking about the belief. I think it was the same thing that you saw. Maybe it

was a segment from Hack. They were talking to one of the writers who was originally

involved in exposing her. And he mentioned that he believes it’s going to because

she’s because nothing has happened because she hasn’t paid a cent of her fine And

nobody knows kind of anything about her anymore. She’s just kind of disappeared off

the radar that they think that this is going to bring about a renewed result. They

think that a lot of people will start to, you know, the public, now that the

public’s learned about it again or been reminded of it, and in a way that is

likely to be emotionally charged, i .e. a drama series,

that it means that there will be a rally for some resolution to the situation,

i .e. maybe she should pay the fine for starters. It’s interesting. How long ago was

it? How many years ago? It was like 2012, I think,

was when she maybe first started posting to Instagram and I think a lot of the

actual duff went down in 2013. But I actually did listen to that piece on hack,

on Triple J’s hack And there was mention of whether or not there should have been

more accountability from the two companies that actually platformed her. So for

example, Apple and the publishing, the book publisher, which I’m sorry, I’ve forgotten

the name of, because they sort of just removed her assets and didn’t really do

anything else. But you don’t know, there was no mention of an apology or anything

like that. So yeah, look, we didn’t give a spoiler warning and we have spoiled the

whole thing now, but I do recommend you watching it. It is, I did find across the

whole piece, it a little bit jarring in terms of the acting and just the editing

of it, it felt a bit like, a bit hard to follow at times. – That’s interesting.

– But yeah, the essence of it, I thought was good. – I was gonna say, I have a

caveat. If people think that I’ve just spoiled the story, when it’s a true story

that was in the news 13 years ago. I’ll challenge you on whether that constitutes a

spoiler. – We all went into the Titanic in knowing pretty much what was gonna be at

the very end of the three hour journey that we were about to enter into. – I mean,

we weren’t prepared for the love story. Don’t get me wrong.

– But if you’re 20 listening to this, you would have only been 10 when that

happened. So you’re forgiven for not knowing. – True. Well, I look forward to hearing

your overall assessment goodies of apple cider vinegar. If you’ve watched it as well,

I’d love to know what you think of it, what you thought of it. But also just what

you think is the right outcome is her paying a fine, which was by the sounds of

it less than the money she actually made. How do they come up with that? I don’t

know. This is this is the justice system.

This episode’s segment from scroll to cart, we’re going to talk about a couple of

different things with a recent purchase that I made on behalf of Renee so that she

could take advantage of my, let’s just say subscription based payment system, which

meant that I don’t pay for delivery. And therefore would mean that Renee wouldn’t

have to pay for delivery if I was getting it as a gift for her. And she was

going to recompensate me the appropriate value of the goods because it was a

purchase for her daughter. Extensive research had been done into this purchase.

And when I say extensive, I mean, Renee researchers like no other,

Renee’s big review reader, loves a review, will not be comfortable with a product

that has less than maybe 30 to 50 reviews so that she can get an idea of the

average opinion as opposed to one person’s or a small group. It’s just maths people.

The more people use your things, the more people you’ve seen in reviews, the more

likely you are to be able to get a realistic idea because you’re bound to have

people in there who just like to complain. You’re bound to have people in there who

just like to praise. And Renee’s pointed out, I think before on this podcast, how

she looks for the review that says something positive and something negative because

that means someone’s looked at all of it, clear, rounded picture when it comes to

that person’s opinion of using that particular product or service. So when we make a

purchase that also involves me, I’m telling you now, there’s research that’s been

done. But maybe this is where we went wrong, because I actually didn’t research this

particular. No, that’s not where it went wrong. I know where it went wrong. It

wasn’t in your research, perhaps. And I guess to add to what you were saying,

I love a three to four star review. That is the sweet spot. If you’re ever

searching for reviews, don’t waste your time with five star or one stars. Just read

the three and four star reviews. But no, this, this purchase, which is a potty or

toy, I don’t know. I guess we don’t say potty in Australia, but then we do.

That’s, I don’t know what the Australian version baby toilet. We do say potty,

but it does specifically mean that Potty solution. I think in other cultures who

also speak English potty means just go to the toilet. Do you need to go potty?

Yeah, and a phrase you’ll hear on American television, for example. I mean, I knew

roughly what I wanted based off some generalized research, but in terms of where to

buy it from and all the rest of it, no, it was pretty impulse because we, as in

our family, identified a need to get one pretty quickly and so it needed to happen

and as Angela said, she was buying it as a gift which you can see my quotes and

having it sent to my address and unfortunately the wrong potty was sent and this is

a potty that I guess is in like the $50 price point and I was sent one that was

in the $20 price point. So even, you know, maybe I could have just gone, yeah, all

good. I’ll just take the wrong one if it’s, you know, lack for lack, but not Mrs.

Customer Service Advocate. You would never do that. The fact that it was an inferior

product is a no brainer. Where I guess the reason that I bring this to the podcast

and why it might be relevant to you listening is because returns online are a

really tricky thing to manage because it’s one of those friction points. It’s one of

those places when someone’s checking out and ordering from you that makes them think,

well, hang on, if this isn’t what I want or worse, if there’s a mistake in this

order, how am I gonna have to manage it and deal with it and what kind of life

admin is going to then, therefore, inconvenience in the future? And it’s not What I

guess I was hoping that we all would ponder was that idea of how the returns

process when shopping online can create a really big barrier and can cause problems.

And I hadn’t really had any kind of issue where I’d received the wrong product.

In a really long time, if not ever, mostly online shopping that I do or have done

has either been from small handmade businesses who I know for a fact put so much

time, effort and care into their shipping and fulfillment, you know, they’re probably

triple, triple, triple checking things. Or I suppose, I mean, the only other time

it’s really happened is buying groceries online. Yeah, when you might get the wrong

missing thing. But you know, that’s high risk of wrong picking activities. But I’m

not really shopping a lot online. The only other brand I suppose that I have

shopped online from that’s a bigger brand would be the iconic. And I haven’t

probably shopped from them in a few years anyway as it is, but they’ve in the past

been usually pretty good as well in terms of their fulfillment. But my long story

short here is I’d receive the wrong product, what do you do? Who’s at fault? What’s

the responsibility? Because now, as I said, going to have this really annoying admin

to do when I was only really shopping online to save myself time and effort and

admin. So as it turns out, you have to sort of log in and do the request and

wait for the approval and all that jazz. And then you get your shipping label to

say, “Here, send it back.” But on the shipping label I’d received, it said, “You’ll

be required to pay for your postage of this return. And so here I am fixing the

mistake that this company had made with your own money. Having to then pay for it.

No, I’m not comfortable with that solution. I contacted the company who said, “No,

no, no, all good. We’ll refund you the postage. You just have to send us the

receipt,” which it’s like more admin receipts.

But by the time I got all of this boxed up, repackaged, and up to the post

office, the man running the post office said,

“Hey, and I were under the impression that perhaps I didn’t have to pay because it

was actually a reply paid address, so all of that worry potentially for nothing, but

still very unclear when it’s said on the label, you will need to pay for postage.”

Oh, and the other thing, I suppose, in this, and this is pretty common practice and

I get it. And this is actually where a small handmade maker business can have an

edge over these larger companies is they don’t do exchanges.

You have to refund and repurchase because they to quote a canned response from any

large company that you might’ve bought from online don’t have the resources to

fulfill your request. So Therefore, please refund, we will send you a refund and

please repurchase the item. But I don’t like that. I just wanna send back what I

didn’t want and get what I wanted. I don’t wanna have to go through another

transaction because now I actually haven’t, well, I’m still waiting for the refund so

I’m yet to repurchase, but I had a quick scan on the same website to repurchase

and it now costs more and shipping is more. shipping is more, so I’m just not

going to go there. I’m just going to take my refund and go. I would have just

loved to exchange. Totally. That would have been like an old school counter situation

back when I was in retail in the ancient

1980s. In the late 20th century, we used to have these customer service counters.

There was a specific area for refunds and returns and exchanges and things like

that. And, you know, they were managed on the spot. Here’s what we can do for you.

We can give you a refund, you know, and it depended on the condition, depended if

it was faulty, depended on whose mistake it was. But all of that was managed by a

human being that had been empowered to make decisions, obviously with a series of

guidelines related into the law but also store policy about how to manage that

situation. And I think it’s worth pointing out that the risk, if you do get the

order wrong as you’ve pointed out, it has to be a refund and then a repurchase.

Now the risk there from the seller’s point of view, which is exactly what has

happened, is that you then lose that sale altogether. So not only have you got a

product that’s been shipped around, You now also have lost a customer because of

that. So you didn’t make the sale at all as a result of messing up the actual

sale in the first place. And it’s funny. It’s actually just reminding me of a story

if we can be sidetracked. I had an Uber Eats order. You may recall this.

It’s actually very, it’s not similar because let’s face it, it’s food delivery. But

I’d ordered some Mexican food for dinner and the food that turned out wasn’t what I

ordered. And upon looking at the printed receipt for the driver,

it was an Angela S and I of course am Angela D. And so instead of getting what

I’d actually ordered, I’ve received someone else’s food. Now, again, I go into here’s

some admin I have to handle like you did. Oh Oh, no. This was the most annoying

thing. I had called the Uber Eats guy because he’s the number and it just happened

and I thought maybe mine was in the car. He tells me I have to ring the

restaurant. It’s their mistake. They didn’t really know what to do and what he wants

us to do. The only resolution once again was to refund me And for me to reorder,

if I wanted that meal again, now luckily this very smart other Angela had ordered a

very decent meal. I ate that one instead of ordering any food. So I got,

I guess, you know, the benefit there from my perspective is I eat a free meal

because I got a refund because they sent the wrong thing altogether. And I still

enjoyed someone else’s beef notch. That was a good two. She had good taste,

whoever she was, but they rang me back eventually saying, “Yeah, what you have to

do is once Uber Eats gives you the refund, you’ll have to reorder it with us.” I’m

not going to do that, am I? It’s a different story if it’s a potty that you’ve

been researching and that you know is the right one and you would really like to

have that potty delivered. You’re not going to do that with dinner when you’ve

actually just been delivered food that is perfectly fine. You’re already salivating.

Yeah, I think I did contact you because I wasn’t sure whether I should eat it or

not. And you’re like, dude, I would have eaten that and made sure they sent my

other meal as well.

That is true.

What is the solution there, do you think? If you’re a small business and you make

a mistake and you send the wrong thing, what are you doing when the person gets in

touch with you? – Well, like I said, I’d love an exchange process if you can. In

the case of the food, you can possibly cut your losses. And again, for you,

if you’re selling a product, think about what that product is and is it something

that you could potentially write off and say, “Look, keep what I’ve sent you or

gift it if you want it or if not return it to me and I’ll send you the

replacement, you obviously have to keep in mind who’s covering the shipping as well.

And I strongly would recommend that you as the business would cover the shipping in

the case of a mistake. But these are things that you can also really clearly

outline in your shipping and returns policy on your website. So instead of just

having information like I charge $10 flat rate for shipping through Australia Post.

And if you want to return something, send me an email. You can actually go into

detail about these steps that you would take in the case of blah, in the case of

blah. And it’s not about saying, I’m likely to make a mistake with your order. It’s

actually just about managing expectations upfront. And I can tell you now that if

you did make a mistake and as a customer, I go to your website and try and find

out, oh, what’s the process? And if that’s all clearly laid out, I’m going to be

happy even after the disappointment. Yeah, that’s true. You are reassured. And I

think even reading them, if you haven’t made a purchase with that person before, I

would rather that they’ve, maybe it’s the risk manager in me, but I would rather

think that they’ve risk managed a variety of scenarios that can affect the success

or the outcome of a transaction between you and them in the online world in

particular. For me, it’s signaling that that’s a smart business owner if they’ve not

only thought about all of those things, but they’re communicating that they’ve thought

about all of those things. I think that that’s a selling point. That’s another thing

too, is make sure you link to those policies and to those procedures in your

product description because when you are shopping online, if you are tentative if you

are uncertain and you’re worried about outcomes like getting someone else’s nachos or

a potty that you didn’t order. It’s important for that information to be there, to

reassure your customers, to make them feel comfortable about buying from you so that

you can avoid those things from happening to just by knowing that they are a

possible outcome. It’s kind of like a safety net.

Making headlines this week, Renee, I’ve noticed a couple of things that we wanted to

share with you, goodies that are happening in the local industry that are interesting

and working in a way that will support small and support Australian.

The Australian Design Centre, our friends over there at the Darlinghurst offices are

setting up in 2025 series of what they’re calling make -up marketplaces. These are

regular events throughout the year. They generally happen on a Friday night and a

Saturday and each of those events features a very small gathering but incredibly well

curated selection of local makers in a variety of media. The program on the website,

australiandesignscentre .com will show you the dates that those are happening and the

artists that are gonna be featured at each of those events. It looks like a really

nice way to kind of get to know makers in a more intimate environment.

I think it would also be a really lovely way to shop if you are prone to

overwhelm and over -stimulation like I sometimes am in those larger venues when

they’re full of hundreds of stool holders. I also saw pop -up on Instagram a post

from Melbourne -based fashion label Variety Hour. It’s been 10 years since Cassie

Burns founded that label, Actually, I think straight out of university and has done

a post on Instagram like a carousel style post that kind of takes you through some

of the key milestones of the 10 years in business that Variety Hour has had. And I

think it’s a really inspiring look, particularly if you’re just starting out to see

how a brand really does just start from the seed of an idea and how it can become

almost anything. The post, you just can flick through and see photos from one of

the first market stalls and how Cassie started the brand in her spare bedroom while

waitressing. I just think it’s good to be reminded, particularly when we come across

brands who are successful and we see them in this very successful light,

to know that it wasn’t always like that. It’s not straight out of a box. You do

actually have to go through a process and there are learnings and ups and downs and

all the rest of it. So yeah, I just thought congratulations to Variety Hour for

making 10 years in business. And also through that process, they have a physical

shop selling the clothing. And I think that that is also testament to the hard work

that they’re putting into the business as well. – Thank you for listening. Don’t

forget that you can always join the Make Good Things Happen community.

We have an online membership. It is a platform that we built to cater to the

specific needs of Australian makers in business. Renee and I have established this

community during COVID as a means of connecting makers that were based all over

Australia who were mostly working by themselves at home on their business. And it

has continued to this day. It also provides other benefits such as education.

We have an email that goes out every week keeping you on track little small

achievable activities or learnings sit up each week so that you,

as a maker in business, can stay on track and keep ahead of your business goals.

And just learn how to do things smart. Learn from the mistakes that have been made

by people before you. It is $29 a month and you get a whole lot of other stuff

too. We’ve got a members -only online group and you can pretty much ask anyone, any

question you like anytime in that group. The podcast is kind of the next phase of

that membership where we’re just providing a little bit more of our opinions and our

commentary on what’s happening in the world around us since we have been working in

this community now for 18 years. We’d absolutely love for you to join and if you

have any questions at all, you can also just reach out to us on Instagram through

our DMs which you can find in our show notes or on our website or of course on

our website, you can also send us an email if you want to ask us more. But yeah,

there’s lots and lots of value and bits and pieces that you can find in there and

downloadables. You can join any time. Online stores and you know,

everything from writing a good product description like we’ve talked about in this

episode through to just basics like keeping your email inbox organized. Thank you

for joining us again. We really appreciate you listening to us and we look forward

to talking to you again very soon. Bye. Bye. 

Thanks for listening to Make Good Things Happen. 

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This has been a D’Alton Baker production.

NB: Transcripts are auto generated and then reviewed for accuracy but we can’t guarantee that they are exactly 100% correct.