Gaining trust from shoppers in a world of ghost websites

If you have been listening, you will no doubt have heard the sound issues we have
had and believe me, we are doing our best to make sure they don’t have been moving
forward. It’s just that sometimes things go wrong and I don’t know until it’s
recorded and finished that those issues have happened. We think we’ve worked out what
the problem was. I mean, the more we do this, the better we’ll get. So you can
join us on the improvement trajectory that we’re hoping to take. – Yeah, if you ever
wondered if your USB port can corrode, that can happen. – There’s this thing called
oxidization that can occur on a USB port on a computer. – Yeah, we are overwhelmed
with this one. – But also thank you for me too, I wanted to say, ’cause I get
excited every time Angela tells me an update on our numbers. But It means people
and that means you, so thank you so much. Yeah. So we’re starting season two. We
have also published, in case you haven’t been aware of it, three episode bonus
series where Renee and I talked very much about my experience as the Curator and
Project Manager of Craft Lab 25. And that was heaps of fun. And we might do those
again. I certainly really enjoyed talking about all of the minutiae of that role.
I love it all. If there’s stuff that you want us to talk about, we’re so keen to
hear from you because there’s obviously people out there listening to us. So season
two is going to be probably a season where we want to hear from you a bit more
and we hope that you will find the confidence to send in emails to us,
for example, or talk to us through DMs on Instagram or however you think you’d like
to chat to us, we want to hear from you. Tell us what you think of the podcast.
Try and be kind to us where possible because we have very sensitive souls, but we
will take constructive criticism. If there’s things that you want us to talk about,
then please let us know. We’ve had a couple of those sorts of emails already and
that’s very exciting to us that people want to hear what what we think about
things. Nothing greater than being asked for your opinion and no greater compliment
as far as I’m concerned. We’re also going to be talking to people in a series of
interviews with makers, but also people that we find interesting that we hope that
you folks enjoy listening to as well because they might not be makers, they might
be people in other areas or of adjacent industry or similar that we think will all
benefit from having a conversation with. Exciting. So welcome after however many
minutes of listening to make things happen. The podcast, we’re so glad to be back.
This episode, we’re going to do some of our usual segments. So back into our
regularly scheduled podcast. The first one we’re going to start with is from role to
cart. And one of the things we’ve noticed is there is starting to be more
discussion, even more discussion in the media of capitalism versus handmade. A lot of
that has come about from a variety of things. I think the US tariffs have created
a massive, obviously a global conversation about the value of production and the
value of export and basics of economy. But I think what we’re also interested in
seeing is the flow on effect. Activities like, for example, the fact that Temu has
now doubled its Australian ad spend. And they are shifting their focus to Australia
as people who are happy to buy online. So Temu,
having doubled its Australian ad spend in response U .S. tariffs and I think what
that means is that as a community we double down on our handmade nature.
We continue the story and maintain the education about small and quality and long
-lasting. One of the examples we saw Renee was with Kuwaii’s post on Instagram that I
think you brought to my attention. – Before I talk about this, or we talk about
this particular postroom client, they also, this is a Melbourne based fashion label
who just as a leader in the maker, handmade, Australian made space, not just from a
product perspective, but just from how they run their business to sustainability,
their branding, everything. They’re always just a beautiful example, but also The
founder also is just a lovely person as well. But before I talk about that, just
on that Temu ad spend thing, and I think one of the things that we hear a lot
from makers, but also something that got brought up in this week’s Making Pathways
content that we publish on our blog and we share with our members of Make Good
Things Happen, was that you can actually get creative with your marketing and think
about other ways to at your business. And I think if anything, the Temu situation
has only proven that to be even more important. And I’ve been doing a little bit
more online shopping or online research at the moment because I’ve recently moved
house. And with that comes needs for things. And what I’m finding is every single
thing I search for on Google, all the results are just Temu. You know, in that
first Google shopping Where I used to find things in there, but now I just actually
skip immediately past it because I am one of the types of people that won’t shop
on Temu. I know there’s a lot of people who will, but I just can’t bring myself
to doing it personally. And then same goes for Instagram ads. I then jump over onto
Instagram and I’m just flooded with three or four ads from three or four companies
who have figured out exactly what I’ve searched for and fork and lock into that.
But it becomes, it just becomes nothing to me. And it’s like it almost forces me
to not look at it. And so I’m now trying to find new ways to actually connect
with brands and products that I feel a personal connection to. Because one thing I
know about myself is that if everyone has the thing, I probably don’t want it. I
want something that’s unique and different. And I think this is where you mentioned
already, like doubling down on the handmade nature of who we are. Get creative. Use
the creativity to find new ways to reach people because it’s not in those
traditional ways. I’m not finding what I want through searching on Google or through
advertising on Instagram anymore. I do have a separate story about that that involves
me getting scammed, but we’ll talk about that later.
Oh, I’m looking forward to that one. But yeah, I think I encourage you to check
out this call I post on Instagram. We’ll link to it in the show notes. It’s
actually a call to their customers. You know, the title is Small Business Needs You
Still, but it’s worth making. Well, it’s almost 100 % is worth looking at,
but I also think it’s actually going to become much more important for Australian
businesses to market to Australian buyers. It’s going to be a very difficult sell
sometimes to sell Australian businesses to Australian buyers. And what I mean by that
is a lot of the convenience that people are demanding essentially these days is very
much a US American business model construct that has infiltrated this space here.
We now have a massive Amazon warehouse in Australia that’s getting bigger and bigger.
I know that there’s more being added to it every time I drive past it because it
is on one of the main roads between here and Melbourne. And so I think with the
introduction of tariffs, the way it will potentially, I’m not an economist,
but the way it will potentially affect. The makers here is for the makers who do
sell overseas, who have found success in the US through their own channels,
either through their website or on Etsy or using the tools that were at our
disposal. Some of them, a large percentage of their business will be coming from the
US at this point in their business because they’ve been doing this for over 10
years, let’s say, they’re the businesses that are going to be really needing
additional support from an Australian audience until this shitstorm settles whenever
that is. Part of our responsibility there is making sure Australian buyers know that
this is a potential conundrum. This is a potential challenge for small businesses
here. There’s a patience in buying small, there is a different pace to life when
you are buying local and supporting local and shopping small that I think is going
to be a difficult adjustment if it’s ever necessary or you know, for people who
aren’t used to it.
And yeah, I just, I just hope that I think future, I hope future generations have
the patients required to shop small, I guess is what I’m trying to say. – Well, and
it’s funny you say that because I was reading an article today about this
announcement of this Amazon haul, which is essentially Amazon’s new in -app competitor
with Temu and Shein. – Oh, Shein, should say. – It’s them competing with those two. So
Amazon is competing with those two to try and cut into the price market,
so everything under $25 and it’s all crap, affordable crap. And they’re saying that
the USP for the offering is that, like you mentioned, the big warehouse, so
everything gets distributed and shipped from Amazon’s warehouse locally. Now, as
someone who’s never shopped from Temu or Shein, I didn’t realize that when you buy
from those platforms, you’re buying directly from the manufacturers in China and they
ship directly from those manufacturers. So it can take two,
three weeks for the product to come. And so there is actually not an immediacy.
And I think you’re talking about, you know, let’s go back to basics and slowing
things down. But I will say that you can actually use it to your advantage because
most things I buy from makers online come within a few days. So even without using
Amazon same day delivery, which I mean, obviously this whole Amazon Haul is going to
kind of disrupt things even further. But yeah, I just think there’s so many ways
that we can actually use it to our advantage, yes, from a messaging perspective,
yes, small business still needs you, those kinds of things. But also you’re actually
shopping from, from a local, you’re shopping, that means that the shipping is a lot
quicker. Yeah, you’re right. You’re absolutely right. And in fact, did that happen to
you recently? Yes. You know, where you bought something from someone local and it
arrived really quickly versus buying something from a different business that didn’t
arrive very quickly. Yes, and that is my scam story, which I am pretty anti -scam.
I think most people like to think they are though. But I just to clarify, when you
say anti -scam, I think most people are anti -scam. I think what you mean is that
you’re I’m scared. And that you’re super, I guess, suspicious and avoidant of
potential suspicious websites. Like, you’ve always been someone who’s alert, you know,
when they’re using a website of the potential to be scammed. One thing that I will
note before I go into this story is that one thing that we talk about is pain
points. And when we’re trying to teach marketing concepts and how you can find that
USP, that unique selling point. We ask you to think about what is your customer
struggling with and how can you solve that problem. And so when I tell you I was
struggling with something, I was deep in struggle because I was dealing with a
bathroom that was just so wet with water after every shower,
it was becoming an absolute sensory nightmare, like wet floors,
slippery, cold, it’s the middle of winter at the moment. I was at breaking point.
And so my Instagram algorithm clued in on this and somehow knew that I was in the
market for a solution to this problem because it probably has a camera installed in
my bathroom. No, it’s at this point, we’re all under 24 seven surveillance.

So I started getting these ads for these bath mats that were made of diatomaceous
earth. And I’ve definitely said that wrong. – I’ve never, I didn’t know what words
you’re trying to say. – So never heard that word. – If you’re in this market,
we might have seen what I referred to as stone bath mats that are essentially like
made of this diatomaceous earth that is highly water,
not repellent, but like absorbent, so it really quickly absorbs the water, but
they’re these hard stone mats, right? And so I kept seeing those and I was
contemplating them, you know, in terms of the buying journey. But one of the points
was that you meant to paper them down every so often to clean them because you
can’t clean them because they’re stone. You know, commentary about how like breathing
in the fire, but you know, it’s like bad for your lungs and it sticks in your
lungs and I just didn’t want any part of that. Yeah. So, I’d sort of abandon the
idea but then, like I said, the algorithm caught wind and started advertising me
these diatomaceous, I’m sorry, I have to keep saying the word, earth maps that were
like, like a yoga mat. So they weren’t stone. They were like, like a flexible
rubber -backed yoga mat. – Oh. – But the ads were all just highly dramatized people
getting in and out of the show.

Showing your pain points. – Yeah, showing a pain point of someone with a red spot
in the mat. – That you could relate to. and just slipping all over the place and
then show it cutting to them, getting out of the shower. – Yeah, exactly. Getting
out of the shower. – The section of them falling it over and then suddenly it goes
from color to black and white in free space. – Yes, I’m gonna say yes. And then it
cuts to them getting out using this mat that like literally just absorbs the water
within an instant. – Angelic singing, yep. – Yeah, and oh – Look,
I’m just so happy getting out of the shower. Anyway, I just kind of believed it.
And I don’t know why. I just– – Hmm, you probably wanted to. – Well, I wanted to
believe that this was the solution to my problem. I started then getting all the
different brand versions of it ’cause inevitably there’s multiple people making the
product and I sort of started looking at different websites and I sort of landed on
one I kind of felt the most authentic in terms of their branding, like they had a
nice logo. Then I did just like a quick search on Google, read it to sort of see
if there were any reviews. And there were a couple of mentions of it, but nothing
overly negative. They had reviews on their website and the reviews on the website
were all positive. Of course, you know, should have been the first red flag, really.
I just kind of was like, you know what, yeah, like I said, I’m going to believe
it. And so I picked it, finally decided to buy it. And these weren’t like super
cheap.
And then realized, and I can’t remember if I realized just before I purchased it or
just after, but realized that the company was actually based out of the US, that my
order was going to be shipping from China. So I kind of thought, “Okay,
that just must be how it happens. That was in an FAQ. We distribute all over the
world.” Soon as I’ve placed the order, I get a big flash up saying, “If you add
some more stuff to your car, you can get an extra 25 % off, which I think I
mentioned to you today about something else. I don’t love that feature. – We should
talk about that feature. – Kind of makes me feel like what if I’d already bought
the thing or it just doesn’t leave a great taste in my mouth? And then afterwards
I’d also received an email saying if you add something to your order within the
next 12 hours, you’ll get another discount on that. So it was just really heavily
trying to get me to buy more before I’d actually received the product. I was
waiting for the product and then around that same time, I saw a choice post that
was like highlighting all of the things like about what a ghost website might be,
which is how you might get scammed from shopping from a website that’s not real. So
they’ll have the big 60 % off countdown. They have all AI generated imagery,
which again, like I was thinking back and I was like, I mean, they did have those
videos in the dress over there. But that doesn’t prove that it works. But all of
all the images were otherwise AI, they shipped from an overseas location.
They’re not based in Australia, which means that they’re not subject to our
compliance and regulations and all of that sort of thing. And I just started to
feel like a sinking feeling in my chest that I had actually fallen victim of this
scam and like I said it was I think it was about a hundred dollars which you know
is a lot of money to it is I know I’m talking tens of thousands but I don’t
think it matters I think that’s that’s that’s that’s money that you don’t want to
lose it’s just that’s a hundred bucks took a couple of weeks but it did come the
mat and I could tell immediately that it was not looking It’s like the quality just
didn’t look awesome. Like there was like fraying on the edges, and I just thought,
anyway, I thought, you know, I’m going to try it. Obviously put it out. Now I’m
standing on a soaked, soggy yoga mat when I get out of the shower, instead of a
soaked, soggy towel. So it’s slightly an improvement to the wet towel,
but definitely instantly. So I don’t even think I said it by claim to just
instantly dry. Doesn’t it like, you know, absorbs all the water, yeah, basically
claimed that you had no issue with water in the shower. But anyway, I had it for
a week. It didn’t even dry. Didn’t even dry once even left it hanging outside just
wouldn’t dry. I mean, there’s two possibilities. Yes, you were scammed. Or the other
possibility is that your bathroom is so problematic that even this diametersious,
but deal with it.
So I think the reason I wanted to bring it up was because I did end up emailing
them just because what happens now is I get to the point where either way,
it’s a story for me to tell and I think I just sometimes I do just give into the
fact that it could end up going badly, But at least I’ll have a case study to be
able to use for the podcast or for clients or whatever But in this particular case
or just learning like Learning yeah, but also customer service like well,
let’s see what they’re going to do Now that I’m dissatisfied as well Like there’s a
curiosity in and I think that’s where a lot of people, you know Do give up and I
think as we’ve you and I’ve pointed out. I think there’s a lot of companies that
are potentially exploiting the propensity for that behavior. For us to go, it’s too
hard. I’m just going to keep it and deal with it and throw it in the bin, as
opposed to knowing their rights, advocating for themselves, getting in touch with the
business and finding out at least how they’re going to respond to you saying,
I’m sorry, what’s going on here? You know, so I mean, you missed your calling at
Choice Magazine. – I know, come on. If you guys need someone to write some articles.
I did send the email, but one thing that I wanted to not do was return the
product because I think I’ve talked about it on a previous episode where we had an
online fail with something else. I just, the admin of having to take it back to
the host office and just dealing with that and, you know, there would have been
costs associated because again, buying from an overseas company. So in the email, I
said, Hey, you know, cheers for the mat. But turns out it doesn’t work.
So hi. Yeah, cheers for the mat.
I was, I think I said something like, to be honest, like, given the way that it
was advertised on your website, I was quite disappointed to see that it didn’t do
what I expected. It didn’t soak up the water in the way that I thought it would.
I was drained of you. That sounds so diplomatic. This is also what these sorts of
industries demand of us as customers. We have to be careful about how we behave
purely when we’re angry or disappointed or upset about the transaction and the
outcome of the transaction. Not everybody feels the same way as we do and you and
I know that as people who have worked in customer service there are people who are
willing to go in full force but I think that what we learn as adults is the
kinder you are and the more reasonable you are as a customer who’s disappointed,
the more likely you are to have a favorable outcome. And as you pointed out,
you’ve already got something in mind. You don’t want to return this, but you’ve got
a goal. I mean, that just reminds me, I think it was my uncle who taught me,
or if not him, somebody, to always start with the, “I’d love for you to help me.”
Yeah, it’s like asking them to kind of have ownership over the problem. But that
aside, I don’t know if I used that or not, I probably did express my
disappointment, didn’t quite suit the purpose of what I had hoped and also mentioned
like the frayed edges and so on, but said, look, I’m not really that interested in
posting it back, but you taught me this one, I know that much, but I’m hoping to
turn this story around. So please give me a good story to tell about this brand
because I have a podcast with over a thousand listeners.
But they actually wrote back within 24 hours or it was,
you know, they wrote back overnight because they were coming from overseas. But they
said, you know, sorry, yeah, okay, we do claim that it works, but it kind of has
these caveats, which, you know, when they wrote in plain English did make reasonable
sense. Like you need to have, you know, not saturating the mat and needs to be
well ventilated, two things that aren’t happening. But, you know, obviously, we do
expect to have our products satisfying our customers. And given you’ve expressed that
you don’t wish to return them, we’re happy to refund you a partial 35 % of the
product price. please let us know if you’d like to proceed. Now, at this point in
time, I don’t have that money back in my account, so I can’t confirm if I haven’t
been scammed. But what I wanted to point out about that interaction was it’s folded
into the business model. They know that this product isn’t really working. And it’s
like, you already brought it up. The most of us can’t be bothered or blame
ourselves or
Yeah. So they’re counting on enough people buying it, enough people, you know, doing
the add -ons and all that stuff before they’ve received the product. They’re really
hammering us up front with all of that, you know, discount, get it now, all this.
And they’re probably, I don’t know, maybe $0 .50. There’s another tier of business in
my opinion and my experience that is not necessarily a scam, but that is literally
their business model, where they are taking a gamble with each customer, they’re
sending out a product that they know is substandard and they have factored in the
returns process. To the point where their returns policy is robust as all get out
with guarantee 100 days, et cetera, et cetera, whatever it might be,
whether it’s furniture or betting or whatever, you know, 100 % money back guarantee,
they lead often with that as a major what you would consider a benefit of buying
from them. They’re relying on people returning things because they know that it’s a
substandard product. But again, that whole business model is reliant on the majority
of their customers not being activated to return it for whatever reason.
I don’t know whether it’s laziness, disinterest, apathy, or acceptance, or like you
said, blaming yourself. I bought the wrong thing as opposed to, you know, I bought
something that doesn’t do what it says it’s supposed to do or this is not how this
particular product is meant to behave. What I strongly encourage our listeners to do
is be aware of your rights as a consumer. I’m sorry that this happened to you and
yes, it was $100 but thankfully it was also only $100 like it could be a lot
worse as you and I both know. With handmade, with small production,
this is again another area that you can make sure you’re providing high quality and
you’re connecting to people. It’s about trust and the smaller you are, sometimes the
easier you are to trust in this world. That’s, I think, where this really came back
to for me is because I went against all of my values in a purchase.
It was a faceless business. There’s no information about who runs the company,
no about page in that respect. Certainly, it’s not even an Australian business,
so I can’t even look up an ABN or anything like that, but buying from makers is
the opposite of that experience. You get almost too much care. You get too much
thought behind it from the way it’s packaged. I know that makers are checking things
more than twice and the attention to detail and the quality control and all of
those things, they’re not setting up a business where they’re hoping things to get
returned. And if things are being returned, they’re taking it very personally and
they’re doing everything they can to address it. And I just think these are all
opportunities to leverage in your own marketing and your own business. Have you got
an about page? Is there a photo of you? Can I feel a connection? How am I
positioning myself to not be one of these ghost websites?
And because they’re getting harder and harder to spot. And like I said, I’m a
website designer. I still fell for this because I was, like I said, desperate in
that moment. Yes. But you’re also a vulnerable, tired mum. And I don’t mean that
rudely. I just mean like, this is the target market they’re working with. And as
we’ve just been saying, it does give makers an opportunity. Like we know these
larger or these different businesses are always going to exist. They’re always going
to be competing for the dollars with our target market just purely because people
are people and Australia is a relatively small country in terms of its population
proportion to size. Focus on the fact that this is a durable product, that this is
a premium product, that this is a quality product, that this is something that will
last. That’s what I’m seeing people complaining about mostly. In the comments sections
of anything that talks about, for example, I think the thing that you sent me about
Haul of Amazon Haul is I saw someone saying great, you know, more landfill or
someone saying, great, let’s buy more crap that breaks with one use. And so these
are the opportunities that our community has because they are the pain points of
your target market when they shop with those people, you explain the quality, explain
why you choose these more expensive materials. Because also in those comments,
I saw someone mention, well, I hope you’re willing to pay the extra for something
that lasts. And they replied with, I always have. And I thought, these are the
people that we need, ardent, passionate, fervent fans of buying quality,
buying once, buying something that’s an heirloom, buying something that you can keep,
that ages well rather than deteriorates. This is where the education of what you do
comes into your practice and your story, your social media, your website. Why you
charge this much? Because it isn’t something that is being shipped from China that
is going to last once, or worse, just across…
Matt’s was in a subreddit thread called Buy it for Life, B -I -F -L,
Buy it for Life, and it’s this trend, if you like, but it’s this movement of
people who are making really considered choices about everything from salt,
pepper, shakers, through to shoes, and these are the sorts of things that you can
also click into? – Well, no, that’s a really good session on From Scroll to Cart.
And I really loved hearing about this scam. I’m sorry that it happened to you, but
it’s a great tale to share and another great indicator of the way that makers can
differentiate themselves in a market.
This week, I just recently finished “Atmosphere” by Taylor Jenkins Reid. Oh,
is she in another new book? Yes. And it’s, it’s her most recent book and it’s
current. And so that’s why I feel comfortable talking about it because usually I’m
catching up and it’s based around a character called Joan Goodwin, who is an
astronomer and wants to become an astronaut. I don’t want to give anything away.
The structure of it is brilliant. The characters are wonderful. The story is
beautiful. I finished it last night just bawling my eyes out, which is always to me
the indicator of good book. And I don’t want to say anything about it, but it’s
about Joan Goodwin and her relationships with other people who also are trying to be
astronauts. Taylor Jenkins Reid. Her books are just always so immensely readable, the
page turners. I want to keep going. It’s like a TV series. You want to binge, you
know, and she finds these characters. They’re just so rich and brilliant. And you
know these people. And that’s why at the end I was just a mess. I don’t want to
give away any spoilers, so I won’t talk about it anymore. But you also have
recently watched something that’s current, the new Lena Dunham series on Netflix.

Yeah, I actually couldn’t believe when I saw Lena Dunham post on her own personal
Instagram to say, “Too much has been out in the world for a week. I can’t believe
it.” And I’d already finished it. And I thought, “Oh wow, that never happens. It
takes me ages to get onto things and watch things, especially at the moment.” But I
am finding I’ve got a little bit more time now to watch a little bit more now
that My child is older. Yeah, it got a bit more energy in the evenings to watch
an episode or two. Yes, I watched too much, which is on Netflix, Lena Dunham. She
is in it, but she’s not the star. If you’re familiar with her, she wrote and was
the lead role in Girls, which was a massive show. But yeah, she’s in it, but it
has like a pretty all -star -ish cast, but with also like some up -and -comers and
and interesting actors. The main actor, female character is Megan Stolter,
I think, who was in “Hacks.” Angela and I, I don’t know if we’ve talked about
“Hacks” on the podcast before, but it’s a show that we both love. I think there’s
a season I need to watch, actually. The character on “Hacks” is just like hilarious,
but kind of annoying, which she is annoying. that’s the character she’s meant to be
annoying, but she’s really funny. But in this show, in too much, it’s adjacent to
that performance in Hacks, but a lot deeper and there’s a lot more going on and
feel like she’s less annoying, more interesting. And I think it’s worth a watch. It
left me feeling uncomfortable a lot of the time, but not too much. Not too much
that I didn’t want to watch it. And I know that that’s what Lena Dunham does a
lot as well in her storytelling is kind of leaves you uncomfortable. The other thing
that I, you haven’t seen it yet, have you? Because again, I’m trying to talk about
it without spoilers. But the other thing that it does is really heavily uses music.
And I, as soon as I finish watching a show, I Google it and get all the
information, because I don’t like doing that before or during. But I like to kind
of read what other people said about it just to kind of like confirm my viewpoint
or I don’t know, just see where I sit in the commentary of it all. But a lot of
people were kind of like, oh, I can’t believe how boring like the music was that
they drag out the scenes, whereas like, to me, I loved the way that that was done,
like allowing space in scenes for the music to actually play a role. And I feel
like I don’t want to, like I said, give it away or put words in your mouth, but
I’d be curious to know what you thought of that. Yeah, I can’t. Because I think
music can tell so much of a story that that was my thought on that. I will
definitely watch that. I look forward to it. So thank you for joining us, episode
one, season two. We’re very grateful that you made it this far into the episode.
We look forward to speaking to you again. We’re going to try and turn these around
a little bit quicker now in terms of recording to publishing so that we can discuss
things that are more current and so that we can talk about the news and what’s
happening. If you have anything else we said that you want us to talk about, please
do email us. Thanks for joining us. Thank you. Bye -bye. Thanks for listening to
Make Good Things Happen. If you enjoyed this episode, why not write a review or
share it with a friend. For show notes and more head to mgth .com .au. This has
been a D’Alton Baker production.

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